>> this time it's got to be different. we've suffered too much pain to stand by and do nothing. we don't have to agree on everything to agree it's time to do something. if there's even one thing we can do, if there's just one life we can save, we've got an obligation to try. we should restore the ban on military-style assault weapons and a ten-round limit for magazines. our law enforcement officers should never be outgunned on the streets. there's no legislation to eliminate all guns. there's no legislation being proposed to subvert the second amendment. there won't be perfect solutions, we're not going to save every life, but we can make a difference, and that's our responsibility as americans.

♪ >> we start with the president who has just wrapped up an important speech in minneapolis on the urgent need to address gun violence across the country. and it's important because it was his first gun policy speech delivered to americans from outside of the echo chamber of washington, d.c. in attendance for his remarks and round table discussion were local law enforcement and elect ed officials as well as the lone survivor to a shooting in the area. and his message was simple. voters must tell their members of congress that they do not believe the nra's deception on gun safety and their ridiculous suggestion that the president is coming to take your guns. >> tell them there's no legislation to eliminate all

guns. there's no legislation being proposed to subvert the second amendment. tell them specifically what we're talking about. >> his speech echoed a super bowl commercial that pointed out the rank hypocrisy of men like the nra's wayne lapierre who at one time was a vocal supporter of background checks. >> we think it's reasonable to provide mandatory, instant criminal background checks for every sale at every gun show, no loopholes anywhere for anyone. >> the nra's most public response to this onslaught of factual statements was on sunday when it trotted out wayne lapierre to yet again repeat the same inaccurate and ill-informed statements to which the president was just referring. >> turn this universal check on the law-abiding into a universal registry of law-abiding people.

>> there's no indication -- i understand you're saying that's the threat, but there's nothing that anyone in the administration has said that indicates they're going to have a universal registry. >> and obama care wasn't a tax until they needed it to be a tax, was it? >> it was the supreme court that said that. >> let's get to our panel now. mark glaze is the director of mayors against illegal guns which is responsible for that super bowl ad. and michael eric dyson is a professor at georgetown university and an msnbc political analyst. thank you both for joining us. mark, it's almost two months since that horrific shooting at sandy hook elementary school. and it seems as though we started the conversation by considering every gun safety initiative from assault weapons bans to restricting gun capacity -- the capacity of gun magazines, yet now the nra says even background checks are worthless, so is that it? is that the end of the discussion? >> well, i don't think the nra marks the end of the discussion. i think it marks the beginning of the discussion. you know, you have this unusual

period of time where the public is really focused on this, including the president, 850 mayors and police officers which you saw today in minneapolis, and there is majority support, even among gun owners for most if not all of those propositions. i think we're going to have a serious debate in the congress whether the nra likes it or not. >> we reported on the tragic story of ha diya pendleton who performed at the inauguration. she was a hard working young student but was shot in a chicago park. is this sense of impotence and pessimism about doing anything simply because we've become culturally acuss topped to the routine of killing and do you think that politicians are now merely reflecting that pessimism by suggesting that there's very little likelihood of anything passing the house or the senate? >> there is a bit of that, martin, i think to be sure. there's the kind of deference paid to these political force that is have bullied law abiding

citizens with common sense into a corner, and i think this is the time to seize the opportunity to stand with the president and all of these mayors across america. it is mayors against illegal guns. not guns. and the reality is that the addiction of the culture to violence, our orientation toward seeing the most vicious forms of carnage perpetuated against each other played out on the american scene, we've got to stop it. and this is the apropos time. you're absolutely right. miss pendleton sang at an event where i spoke during the inauguration and a few days later lay dead on the streets of chicago. this is a vicious wake-up call for those of us who claim to be on the side of young people who are vulnerable who need our voices to raise and to rise in unison against this gun lobby and the nonsensical insistence

that president obama and anybody else who is concerned about taking care of illegal guns is against the second amendment. >> mark, to that point, the president said we don't have to agree on everything to agree to do something. but the nra position is that they don't agree to anything if it involves changes to the law. >> well, the amazing thing about the nra's position, which i think people are trying to understand right now, they don't represent gun owners in the positions they're taking against universal background checks which is something basically everybody agrees on. when you're at 90% public approval, that is pretty much unanimity behind the idea that if you are a felon, if you are a domestic violence perpetrator, if you are somebody who has a protective order out against them, a drug abuser, the seriously mentally ill, you should not be able to own a gun and you are currently not able to own one so this is merely

enforcement of what is on the books. >> and yet if the nation cannot respond after 20 infants are murdered in a quiet classroom, quite apart from the relentless singular murders i referenced just now with regard to hadiya pendleton last leek, what does the leadership of the nra need to happen before it will support anything that might make us safer? what needs to happen? >> what you're underscoring here is the fact that we've got to stop asking the question here, what will be enough for them? we've got to seize the opportunity to make sure that they feel the pressure of the american people. they are the ones who are being anti-democratic, small "d." they're the ones being unpatriotic in the sense they're not protecting all the citizens here. to ask what it will take for them, they will have to take somebody from their own families, some person who gets killed, murdered, or harmed that they know intimately for them to feel the message the american people collectively have

experienced the horror of seeing these 20 vulnerable children and now miss pendleton subjected to arbitrary forms of violence that can be predicted because of these magazines and these drums and these strips that do nothing but bring carnage to our streets. they have no place in our homes, in our schools, and in our society. and i think we have to put the pressure on them, not wait for them to be awakened. >> now, let me play you both something that nra president david keene told clarence thomas' wife in an interview published today. mark, take a listen. >> newtown, tragic as it was, was an opportunity for these people to do what they wanted to do all along. this president, barack obama, before he ever ran for office was an activist in trying to restrict second amendment rights. >> mark, i'm not sure which is more revolting, the statement itself or what it implies about the americanness of the

president. what are your thoughts? >> it's a terrible thing for david keene to say, and we don't really understand why he said it. it was a terrible thing for then ra -- >> but, mark, this is the second time during this interview that you said you don't understand what the nra is saying and why they're saying these things. neither do i, but this is what they're saying every single day. this is what they're saying. >> yeah. you believe that a lobby is tasked and paid to do what the members of that lobby want them to do, but this is not where gun owners are. this is not where nra members are. 74% or more of nra members think everybody should get a background check. so i hope that the members of that organization will at some point start asking the leadership in washington what exactly it is they're lobbying for. >> professor dyson, what did you think of that statement that the president was waiting for an opportunity? >> i mean, this is balderdash. this is, again, you're talking about somebody who is being opportunistic.

to take the, you know, the horror that happened to these children as an excuse to deflect attention from their own complicity in the whole matter and to put it onto president obama's back is nothing less than a disingenuous act from a dishonest people who are intent on telling a lie, and we have to expose the truth of it. you're wrong, mendacious, you're outright un-american because you refuse to love the best of what america is, our children. until you can be brought to bear before the bar of justice on that, what you're doing is harmful to the american people and to our kids' future. >> mark, as a bare minimum and finally, what do we need to change and curb the level of gun violence? do we need a ban on assault weapons? do we need these magazine clips to be reduced as the president said in his speech less than an hour ago to just ten rounds? what is it that you are seeking? >> well, i think all of those things are absolutely part of the solution.

we think one of the biggest faks, probably the biggest is making sure every buyer gets a background check at a licensed dealer whether they're buying from a dealer or from a private seller. something like 90% of firearms that are used to murder people in this country are sold by people who are buying handguns -- >> and, mark, is it your position that that should apply even to family members who are passing a weapon on perhaps generationally? >> no, actually we don't think so. that's another one of the red herrings that the nra hangs out there. we think if you're making a transfer to your son, nephew, grandson, you shouldn't have to go through a background check. nobody seriously thinks that i think at this point which is why the nra continues to put up these fake arguments in an attempt to defeat a fairly basic proposition. if you are a felon or other dangerous person, you shouldn't get a gun. >> look at what happened in newtown. not that she transferred the gun. but the gun used to murder her

and the other people pass passed on from the mother to the son and i understand the point you're making so the nra is generating a red herring but we have to have some common sense when it comes to the distribution of these guns and we've got to have somebody impose an adult-like conversation on adolescent behavior. >> mark glaze and professor michael eric dyson, you yourselves have just done that for our benefit. thank you, gentlemen. >> thank you. next a civil war breaks out in the gop leading to the question, why would anyone listen to karl rove again? stay with us. [ whispering ] i've always preferred the crème part of an oreo. [ whispering ] that's crazy, the cookie's the best part. crème. cookie. crème. cookie. [ whispering ] crème. [ whispering ] cookie. [ whispering ] crème. [ whispering ] cookie. [ whispering ] crème. [ whispering ] cookie. crème! [ fire alarm ringing ] [ whispering ] fire! crème. cookie.

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without a trace of irony, karl rove is calling his latest

super pac the conservative victory project, but it seems that true conservatives are unlikely to embrace the evident, which is aimed at preventing people like failed senate candidate todd akin from winning their party's nomination in the first place. mr. rove's plan is to cut off tea party extremists before voters can reject them at the polls. but it's inspired a furious backlash. blogger erick erickson says any candidate who gets the support of mr. rove's group should be targeted for destruction by the conservative movement. while another conservative crusaders calls it yet another example of the republican establishment's hostility towards its conservative base. joining us now is jonathan capehart of the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst the great karen finney. jonathan, given that karl rove spent $300 million of their money and predicted a dead certain romney victory, it's hardly surprising that

republicans are not happy about his latest project, is it? >> no, you're right. it's not surprising that they're not happy, but i would have to say that what karl rove is undertaking and whether he's the right messenger here remains to be seen but the project he's undertaking is vital for the republican party's survival. they want to continue being a national party as opposed to a regional party coming out of the south, then they're going to have to elect candidates to the house, to the senate, and ultimately to the presidency who can win national elections. >> well, karen, karl rove's victory project is barely off the ground, but it seems they've already got their first target in mind. it's iowa congressman steve king. in the words of a top aide to mr. rove, quote, we're concerned about steve king's todd akin problem. all of the things he said are going to be hung around his neck. karen, aside from the fact that mr. king refers to undocumented

immigrants as lazy dogs, suggested hillary clinton's state department has ties to the muslim brother 450dhood, and that he doesn't know where the president was born, might targeting mr. king actually help mr. king in some way? >> it could, although here is what i think it does broadly for the republican party. it does mean whoever the ultimate nominee, republican nominee in that race is, has to figure out a way to bring all those voters back together to get enough vote to then run against a democratic opponent who won't have been so ideally beaten up during a primary. remember, it was this sort of republican on republican violence during the primary that gave us, you know, vul titure capitalism that was used in the general election. >> it was also one of the finest clown shows ever to be witnessed. >> it was. far be it to me to deny america such a wonderful show. it's interesting though because similarly republicans have sort of -- i think this gives democrats a very interesting opportunity to exploit these

fractures within the republican party. jonathan is right that ultimately the party has got to do something if they want to be a national party, but also it creates far more fault lines between republican candidates. i mean, all of the coverage about this today shows you i don't even know that we know who is the conservative base of the republican party because clearly there's some differentiation between the people who have come out today to talk about this. >> indeed. jonathan, be honest, isn't this blame shifting really, the act of a slippery political operative who never takes responsibility for failure but he himself is only ever focused on making money at the expense of a political party. >> well, look, karl rove -- >> answer the question, john. isn't that true? >> isn't this sort -- i'm sorry, i thought it was a rhetorical question. look, karl rove is -- this is sort of classic karl rove where on the face of it, it looks like what he's doing is, as you

suggest, you know, very sort of self-beneficial. he ends up being someone who benefits from this, but at the same time it's something, as i said before, it's something that the republican party needs to do. the republican party cannot afford to have steve israel run for senate and lose -- >> you mean steve king? >> say that again? i'm sorry, steve king. >> steve israel, democrat -- >> yes. >> karl rove likes to pretend it was todd akin and richard mourdock who lost the election but wasn't it george w. bush, the monster to karl rove's dr. frankenstein who lost the election for republicans? >> well, he certainly did his part. i would -- as did karl rove. >> exactly. >> wouldn't you love to be in the meetings with donors when the donor says tell us what you've been up to recently, karl? what races have you won? that's going ton an interesting meeting. more importantly, one of the things i find so interesting,

there's an element of chickens coming home to roost because when you don't stand up against birtherism and some of the other conspiracy theories and you let these things fester within the base of your party and then candidates run on some of those sort of wacky ideas, yeah, you know what? they're probably going to lose. and so now they're having to sort of internally deal with a problem that to some degree they created by not standing up against some of it when they should have. >> indeed. i must get to jonathan quickly because it sounded as if his phone was ringing and his meal was about to arrive. john, will the republican party be duped again by george bush's brain? >> you know what? maybe. i think the fundamental fight here is between the traditional -- sort of the traditional base of the republican party and then the tea party sort of far right wing folks within the republican party, and which one is going to win to become sort of the

governing part of this party. i don't think this is something that can be solved within one election cycle. i don't think we're going to see, you know, the results of all this by 2014, maybe 2016. i mean, it took the democrats a very long time, many election cycles, to get to the point where it now has a two-term elected democratic president and i think the republican party is going through the same kind of things, the same kind of issue that is the democrats went through that led up to bill clinton being elected president. >> indeed. and we should just repeat, the amazing successful of karl rove. american crossroads achieved a success of 1%. our thanks to jonathan capehart and karen finney. coming up, tagg romney for the united states senate? well, we know he likes a fight. stay with us. >> what is it like for you to hear the president of the united states call your dad a liar? >> jump out of your seat and you want to rush down the debate stage and take a swing at him, but you know you can't do that

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we squus want to make sure the whole system is fair. i meet extraordinary women in uniform who can do everything a man can and more. gays and lesbians should have access, opportunity, the same way everyone does. >> can a man actually run the state department? i have big heels to fill. >> the nra is now revealed as an insane organization. >> obama is not going to take your gun. obama will protect gun rights trying to take away all three. >> he's not taking away shot guns. >> i have been supported by then ra on occasion. >> and obama care wasn't a tax until they needed it to be a tax. >> quit calling it right now a universal check. the real title ought to be the check on law-abiding people. >> skeet gate because barack obama said he likes to shoot skeet. why have we not seen photos of it. nothing would ease the mind of

republicans more than a photo of the black president with the gun. >> why they waited five days. >> the president's kids are all safe and they're thankful. >> they also face a threat most children do not face. >> tell that to the people of newtown. >> do you really think the president's children are the same kind of target -- that's ridiculous and you know it. >> absolutely is. let's get right to our panel. julian epstein is a democratic strategist and joining us is tim dickins dickinson, who has a piece on the history of the nra in the very latest edition ever "rolling stone." . welcome to you both. tim, i want to start with you ". your article details how wayne lapierre took the nra from a group that represented gun owners not one supported by and supportive of the gun industry. can you explain to the viewers the element of money that's in play here? >> well, the nra is a dark money group. it doesn't have to disclose its dono donors, but apparently it's good pr for a number of gun makers to

be affiliated with the nra. that we know about that the nra has disclosed we know about millions. they have the golden ring of freedom and they have access to wayne lapierre and help shape policy. >> the yoshths has a wonderful piece on how a brilliant marketing campaign has made thea r-15 is best selling gun while slate recently estimated that assault rifles represent a half billion dollar industry. now, just to be clear, this isn't about children. this isn't about the second amendment for the nra. this is about corporate profits, isn't it? it's about making money for gun manufacturers. >> that's right. and i would commend tim's article to everyone. it's a superb piece. it's a very important piece. i think you put your finger on

it. "the new york times" revealed that the nra is now and their cohorts are trying to market assault weapons to children as young as 10 years old largely because sports related -- gun related sports are on the decline. this is clearly about generating money and profits. i think it's blood money. and as i said on your show on friday, i mean, i think given that, given what wayne lapierre, his experience on fox news yesterday where he was called out as having an absurd position on assault weapons and the attack on the president's children, he's becoming like the sacha baron cohen of this debate. what i think is really going on and what is really important is that he realizes, the nra realiz realizes, they have lost the debate on universal background checks and they're trying to use that as a bargaining chip to fight assault weapons and clips. and that's very, very important because universal background checks would not have stopped the killer in newtown because he took his mother's gun.

universal background checks would not have stopped the shooter in aurora at the movie theater. universal background checks would not have stopped the shooter at virginia tech. so it seems very important to me at this point, and this was very important about what the president said today when he reminded everybody that assault weapons and clips were very, very important part of this. you hear some democrats getting weak on this. it's very, very important that democrats not, and i think the people that want to bring honor in the memory in terms of legislation to the victims in newtown, aurora, virginia tech, else elsewhere, that they not give up just on background checks. they would not stop many of the mass murders that occur on a scale of about one to two a month in this country. >> indeed. one of wayne lapierre's tactics is a point an apocalyptic version of america.

>> if you limit the american public's access to semiautomatic technology, you limit their ability to survive. >> tim, you limit their ability to survive. almost 1,300 people have been killed due to gun violence since sandy hook. it's not even two months. where does he get this kind of nonsense? i mean, and why am i scared that he's actually proving himself to be quite effective as a messenger? >> the nra sells the fear that sells the gun. plain and simple. their a marketing association that sells fear so people go out and arm themselves and who profits from that? it's the gunmakers. who profits from illegal gun sales to people who shouldn't have guns? the gunmakers. who profits from guns that get bought up by fly by night dealer on the border and are shipped to mexico to arm the drug insurgency there? it's the gunmakers.

whose interest is the nra representing? the gunmakers. it's just not that complicated. >> julian, is it not that complicated? >> it's really not that complicated and it's been pointed out ad nauseam at this point. you would have to be the worst hunter since elmer fudd to believe that you need an assault weapon for hunting purposes. assault weapons, military-style weapons are for one purpose, and their purpose is to kill lots of human beings within a matter of seconds. as i say, if you take that out of the equation here, you are not solving the problem that occurred in newtown. you are not solving the problem that occurred in aurora or virginia tech. it's critical that democrats and other people that want to remember the victims of newtown, connecticut, not just think that universal background checks are going to solve the problem here. they won't. the fact of the matter here is as tim and others have pointed out, you have got 60% to 70% of the public that support a ban on these large capacity magazines and on assault weapons according

to pew. the idea that we would let a minority in congress thwart the democratic majority will by use of process seems to be mildly obscene to me and it's ultimately a question of how effective organizing for america and the other grassroots capabilities we've talked to can be. what they've got to be able to do is overcome this obstructionist impulse by a minority thwarting the public will because the public wants not just background checks, they want a lot more than that. >> i pray so. julian epstein and tim dickinson, thank you. next, in tagg they trust. are republicans looking for another romney to run? stay with us. we are gathered here today to celebrate the union of tim and laura. it's amazing how appreciative people are when you tell them they could save a lot of money on their car insurance by switching to geico...they may even make you their best man. may i have the rings please?

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run for the seat vacated by newly installed secretary of state john kerry has republicans in massachusetts in something of a quandary and with only a few months to decide on a suitable candidate. as for tagg, romney, you may remember his reaction to the president after the second debate. >> jump out of your seat and you want to rush down the debate stage and take a swing at him and you know you can't do that because there's a lot of secret service between i and him and that's the nature of the process. >> steve kornacki and professor bob shrum, a democrat ink strategist and a columnist for the daily beast. steve, on friday you wrote the republican panic stems from the fact they believed scott brown was their best hope. the boston herald reports tagg is considering a run, ann romney is a popular figure. has it really come down to this for the republicans in massachusetts? >> well, i mean, it really has. to put it in context, when scott brown won in the 2010 special election, previous to that for

three of the four previous senate elections before 2010, the republican party basically took off in massachusetts. that's how -- 13% of the electorate is republican in the state. they basically gave john kerry two free passes and ted kennedy is free pass, too. in 2010 scott brown came out of nowhere and wins the seat. you're looking ahead to the special election and you say you have something here that's rare in massachusetts, a republican with statewide name recognition with broad personal popularity. fe takes his name out of the mix, romney is a name in massachusetts but it's not a popular name personally or politically. >> bob, given his father's exposure as a plutocratic venture capitalist who stashed millions of dollars overseas, can you really imagine a tagg romney who, by the way, runs the investment firm solomir capital, being exposed to a similar level of scrutiny? >> i think he'd get a lot of scrutiny if he runs. the in accordannational review thinking of it. i think in the end he will think

better of it. he would be lucky to get his father's proverbial 47% of the vote. his father lost by 23 points to barack obama. lost by almost 20 points to ted kennedy, ended up being a very unpopular governor of the state and only got to be governor by going out and pretending to be the moderate that he was not. i don't think tagg romney could pull that off. he'd actually be better off moving to utah, waiting five years, and running for orrin hatch's seat if he wants to be in the u.s. senate. >> okay. former white house senior adviser david plouffe tweeted this about a possible tagg romney run for senate. quote, hidden genius behind romney campaign and wannabe pugilist looking at senate. obama voters for him? hard to see. that's true, but his father did win. >> a different version of his father won. that was the story of the 2012 election, right? the mitt romney of 2002 and really the first i'd say year and a half of his governorship was a popular guy in

massachusetts. he was engaged in the job. he was responsive to the concerns of sort of the general election audience in massachusetts. and he decided in 2004 when he threw a lot of money and personal time into an effort to really make inroads for the republican party in the state legislature, it backfired, he said the heck with it, i'm going national. his popularity in massachusetts tanked after that. >> bob, if tagg romney does decide to run, he may face a primary chal lek from the vaunted fox news medical a team dr. keith ablow. here is a quick look at some of the great doctor's greatest hits. here they are. >> i did not evaluate joe biden. you have to put dementia on the differential diagnosis. three people can love each other so polygamy has to be close behind. how can you have same-sex marriage and not believe that three people can fall in love? the president has hijacked those tragedies in order to advance his desire for gun control. >> professor shrum, how would a

senator keith ablow expedition bobby jindal's campaign less stupid. >> he's a total nonstarter in massachusetts. the fact of the mat ser the guy ought to be on the fox news medical "f" team and he ought to do to himself before he decides to run for the senate some of what he does to other people and that is examine his own head. the fact is there's -- steve is right about this. panic is exactly the right word. there's panic in massachusetts. what happened in 2010 in my view was a one off do to a rare set of circumstances. scott brown was actually smart not to get involved in this race and i don't think the republicans have anybody, including tagg romney or lord knows keith ablow to get elected. >> what about the dark horse, the dressage horse owned by the

romneys? >> there's a state legislator who got his start in the romney administration named dan winslow. there's been a lot of speculation this would be the guy. i think the expectation going into a race for a guy like dan winslow would be not that he wins it, but this is an opportunity to get some name recognition and position himself for maybe 2014 when there's going to be a host of statewide offices on the ballot. republicans can win when it's not federal office in massachusetts, they can win those races sometimes in massachusetts. so a guy like winslow would see an opportunity to run for the senate, make a respectable showing, get a name and run for in 2014. >> i suspect you think that that seat is going to remain in democratic hands. >> oh, i think now it's pretty clear the seat is going to remain in democratic hands. there's going to be a primary. i think steve lynch, who is a conservative pro-life congressman will lose the democratic primary decisively to ed markey. democrats are not going to be complacent about this.

democrats assume martha coakley would win that seat. the 2010 was a lesson. i don't think the circumstances are the same but i'll tell what you comes out of it. you will have a democratic party very united, very concentrated, very intent on winning that seat, and i think they will. >> professor bob shrum and steve kornacki, thank you so much, gentlemen. next, are we doing enough for the brave men and women who volunteer to fight for this country? stay with us. but before we go to break, tyler mathisen has the cnbc market wrap. good afternoon. >> thank you very much. one day after the dow crossed above 14,000 for the first time in five-plus years, it crossed back below 14,000. i guess investors paying off their super bowl bets. it was down 129 points at 13,880. the s&p 500 down 17 points. nasdaq 3131, off by 47 points today. that's the market action. martin will be right back after this. [ male announcer ] susan writes children's books.

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the shocking death of navy s.e.a.l. chris kyle has brought the crisis of post-traumatic stress disorder back into the headlines. the man charged in the shooting of kyle and one other person, 25-year-old eddie routh, has been described as a troubled vet tron whom they were trying to help. a friend who assisted kyle with his nonprofit work said chris died doing what filled his heart with passion, serving soldiers struggling with the fight to overcome ptsd. his service, life, and premature death will never be in vain. let's bring in msnbc military analyst colonel jack jacobs, who is a recipient of the medal of honor. colonel, we only just saw an

incredibly disheartened report from the department of veteran affairs on suicide among veterans. 22 veterans per day or one every 65 minutes kills himself or herself. now, given the enormity of this crisis, are we doing enough? >> well, you can never do enough, and there are lots of reasons for it. i think -- >> but are we doing the bare minimum given these numbers? >> i think we're doing the bare minimum, but part of the problem is it is difficult to do anything after the fact. we ought to be doing more before the fact. i mean, one question that comes immediately to mind is, are all the people we're bringing into the services, are they capable of handling what it takes to be in the military? and then we discover after the fact that there were problems before and so on. we're in an environment in which we have an all-volunteer force. we need to do a better job at

assessing time. we don't take just anybody. >> well, chris kyle was known as the most lethal sniper in american military history. he was shown among his comrades for reaching out to them. the suspect is thought to be one of the very people chris kyle was helping. isn't this a call in and of itself for additional government assistance in terms of the condition of these people? because as we know, it's very hard to ascertain on occasions whether someone is suffering with ptsd. >> that's part of the problem. as you know, we've spoken before, there used to be a tremendous stigma about identifying yourself -- >> self-identifying. >> and we're quite a bit better now and the chain of command is very much involved in identifying people while they're on active duty as having problems. but when troops leave the service, that's when it's important that the service makes sure that the veterans administration knows that there are people who may have problems. i'm not certain that the service

is doing the best job they can to make sure the va is identified. >> we don't know the exact details of this case, but there's been some speculation that this individual was at a shooting range because there was an opportunity as it were for exposure therapy, what psychiatrists describe in treating people with these kind of conditions, taking them back to using things like weapons that they may have used in the field. isn't that though in and of itself a dangerous thing -- >> i'm no psychiatrist but i'm telling if you somebody was unstable, the last thing in the world i'd give them is a gun and access to guns. you know, so this sort of amateur psychology that takes place among well-meaning people, their hearts are in the right place but this is one case that demonstrates that this kind of stuff ought to be left to the professionals. >> it's sad, indeed. >> very sad. >> colonel jack jacobs. thanks. we have breaking news to report about the hostage standoff involving a 5-year-old boy in alabama. let's get to nbc's gabe

gutierrez who has been on the scene since the standoff began a week ago. can you tell us what happened? >> reporter: certainly significant news has happened within the past few minutes. a hotbed of activity behind me. i can now report according to a source, very close to the police investigation that the standoff is now over. that is according to a source with the dale county sheriff's office. he would not characterize the outcome of the standoff. that is expected to be announced in the next half hour, 45 minutes or so by authorities here on the scene. here is what i can tell you. normally we have been very careful not to show what's going on behind me during the standoff, but now that we can, a report that it is over, you can see authorities -- you see that dirt road back there. within the past few minutes, we heard a loud boom and a lot of activity and then an ambulance coming down that road. we did see fbi and local law

enforcement coming down the road, and within the past few minutes we also saw an official come up out of breath and announce we were going to have a press conference within the next 30 minutes or so. again, here at the scene a source close to the police investigation with the dale county sheriff's office reports that the standoff that has been going on for about 140 hours now where this 5-year-old boy with autism was held in a bunker underground after being taken by the man police say, 65-year-old jimmy lee dyk es, he boarded a school bus last tuesday and shot the bus driver before taking 5-year-old ethan to that bunker, we can now report that the standoff is over. and we should find out more information about exactly what happened, about the condition of the suspect. we hope to have that for you within the next few minutes. >> okay. gabe, going back to the individual suspect, the alleged individual holding this 5-year-old boy, jimmy lee dykes, what can you tell us about him as an individual? >> reporter: well, neighbors

from the very beginning describedloner with a deep distrust of government. we have been waiting to hear an exact motive. we know the day after the standoff began last wednesday, he was scheduled to be in court on a misdemeanor charge of menacing a neighbor. again, neighbors described him as a loner who had an extreme -- he really wanted to protect his property, they said. anytime somebody got close to the property, they felt they had a difficult interaction with him. we also know that he was a vietnam era veteran. nbc news confirmed that he even won several awards, including the vietnam service medal back in the '60s. but again jimmy lee dykes, we do not know his condition at this point, but we can report according to a source with the dale county sheriff's office here in alabama that the standoff is over after about 140 hours. again, we do not know the condition of those involved just yet. we hope to find that out within

the next few minutes or so. >> that's a helpful description, gabe, of the individual suspect. and the boy himself, it said that he suffered with autism. is that correct? >> reporter: that's right. he had a mild form of autism, asperger's syndrome. with the child -- the child was supposed to turn 6 later on this week. people around this community were collecting cards and sending well wishes to the child and really praying for a safe resolution to this standoff for the past few days. again, he's a 5-year-old boy about to turn 6 this week, and his parents have been worried sick, have not spoken to the media at all. part of that was because it was believed that dykes may have access to television so the police were being very, very careful about what they were saying to the media and in public because they presumably feared he might be watching this on television. again, that child, 5-year-old

ethan, we do not know his condition at this point, but again the standoff is over and we hope to find that out within the next few minutes, martin. >> gabe, earlier today i heard you reporting of certain activity in the air above the scene of what was happening. can you tell us about that? >> reporter: sure. well, there was aerial surveillance going on. now, these negotiators have been on the scene since last week. we know the fbi took over the investigation last week, and we know that they've been trying to figure out kind of the layout of dykes' property. now, the aerial surveillance, when an fbi team comes in like this, they obviously have different methods that they use to get a clearer picture of what exactly is going on. we were able to confirm with a federal law enforcement official that the small aerial aircraft that we've been seeing kind of circling the property in the morning, that that was a